Is it time for Vanguard?

[Furiyen]

Ok, I understand we’re definitely moving towards more and more Reaper Raids/Questing, particularly higher Skull ratings, and I’m wholly unsatisfied with the number of deaths that my THF Paladin, Azraiyel, is suffering.

Some of these deaths are entirely down to my playstyle/skill level. But some of them I just keep thinking “If I had 10% more of that…” or “200 more of that….” … I would of survived.

Some examples:

• TS – I caught Sorjek’s sword attack to the face last night, when I was in his front 180deg arc and around 10 metres away from. It was a circa 3K hit, and purely down to bad timing/unlucky turn on my part

• Hound – I caught a Protector attack in the back that hit me for circa 1.2K Damage, and killed me. Here I was thinking, yep, a bit more HP/PRR and I would of turned around and used Stunning Blow on that sucker while I finished off his mate first.

There are many other examples, but rather than dwell on them I thought I would post up my current build and get some feedback on it before I do something drastic.

Because right now, I’m seriously considering a DPS Vanguard build instead.

[Furiyen]

Build Goals
1. Maximum Strength, to wield a ESOS with maximum possible damage on a Paladin.
2. As much Crit Enhancement, Melee Power, Doublestrike and Armour Piercing as possible to maximise the crits generated by an ESOS
3. Tactics – If I was going to maximise strength, then take Stunning Blow / Dire Charge / Sense Weakness to improve DPS output vs trash even further
4. Exalted Smites – Use Exalted Smites as often as possible for more Melee Power and Crit damage. Improve Smite usage through Endless Smiting, Sanctified Gages, Holy Retribution and Endless Turning
5. As much AoE damage output as possible – Dire Charge, 3 Cleaves & Holy Retribution.

(Yeah, I really wanted to build an ESOS wielding Pally 🙂

Base Build
Human, Paladin 20
Base / Current Stats:
Str: 18 / 91 (DM Active, 68 Base)
Dex: 12 / 31
Con: 14 / 51
Int: 08 / 21
Wis: 08 / 32
Cha: 16 / 57

Past Lives:
3x Fighter, 3x Paladin, 1x Monk, 3x Sorcerer, 3x Cleric, 3x Favoured Soul, 1x Warlock, 1x PDK
3x Martial: Doublestrike

Tomes:
+6 Tomes to all stats, +2 Melee Power Tome

Destinies:
All Destinies completed, +2 Fate Tome

Feats:
Heroic: THF, ITHF, GTHF, Toughness, IC: Slash, Quicken, Maximise
Epic: Overwhelming Critical, Precision, 2x Epic Strength
Destiny: PTWF, Tactician, Dire Charge
Scion: Arborea

Stats:

Melee Power: 99 static, +15 Onatars Forge / Empowered Smite, +Crusade & Zeal from DC
Doublestrike: 52.62% + Zeal from DC
Melee Alacrity: 15%
BAB: 30
HP: 1360
AC: 113
Fort: 263%
Dodge: 12%, 13 MDB
PRR: 159
MRR: 89
F/R/W: 89/66/66
Heal Amp: +90% over Base
Positive SP: 386 + Maximise

Dire Charge DC: 112 with Divine Might active, 115 with Onatars Forge
Stunning Blow DC: 102 / 105 ?

Destiny: Divine Crusader
Strike Down, Celestial Champion, Heavenly Prescence, Crusade, Sacred Ground, Consecration Rk2, Endless Turning Rk2, Strength x5

Twists:
4 Sense Weakness
2 Endless Smiting
1 Legendary Tactics
1 Extra action Boost

Enhancements:
KotC
C All cores inc Capstone
1 Extra Smite Rk2, Extra Turns Rk2
2 Divine Might Rk3, Exalted Smite Rk3, Melee Power Boost Rk3
3 Strength, Exalted Smite Rk3, Vigor
4 Strength, Empowered Smiting, Censure Demons
5 Avenging Cleave Rk3, Holy Retribution Rk3, Censure Outsiders, Sealed Soul
= 46AP

SD
C Holy Bastion, Sacred Defense, Divine Righteousness, Redemption
1 Durable Defense Rk3, Extra LoH Rk3, Sacred Armour Mastery Rk3
2 Resilient Defense Rk3
3 Charisma, Tenacious Defense Rk3
4 Charisma, Strong Defense Rk3
= 26AP

Vanguard
C Core 1 only
1 No Weakness Rk3, Armor Training Rk1
2 Brutality Rk3
= 8AP

Gear:
Armour: Celestial Platemail of the Avenger, Slots: Armoured agility +2, Draconic Soul
Helm: Executioners Helm
Goggles: Epic Glimpse the Soul, Slots: Resistance +8, Protection AC +8
Bracers: CC – +15 Strength, Ins Fortification +79, Ins PRR +18, Slot: Vitality +20
Gloves: Sanctified Gages, Slots: Dex +8, Ins Dex +2
Belt: CC – Doublestrike +15%, Stunning +17, Ins Constitution +7, Slot: Exc Stats +1
Boots: Boots of Blessed Travels, Slots: Wisdom +8, Good Luck +2
Cloak: CC – Charisma +15, Natural AC +15, Ins Charisma +7, Slot: Empty
Necklace: Leg Pendant of Warriors Focus, Slot: Enhancement HP +40
Ring1: Leg Ring of Prowess, Mythic +1, Slots: Empty
Ring2: CC – Constitution +15, Devotion +159, Ins MRR +18, Slot: Empty
Trinket: Epic Litany, Mythic +1, Slots: Empty

[Furiyen]

I have more to post with thoughts on possible THF build changes, and the advantages of swapping to Vanguard, but I have to run off to work 🙂

So I’ll leave that for you digest that for now!

[Palna]

I felt just like you yesterday, and thought about this a couple weeks ago as well when I actually respecced from 15/5 tempest to pure vanguard to try it out. I wasn’t impressed, it didn’t really gain much survivability-wise. PRR was a little higher and gained a bit on MRR but since the problem is physical damage that didn’t do much with regards to survivability.

What did happen though was that it took ages (compared to Tempest) to kill stuff, and after testing a bit I went back to 14/6 ranger split to have a better ranged option. (Similar to Eth’s build on forums)

What I think I at least was doing last night in HoX was playing like it was not reaper. Myself I was just spamming Dire Charge like before, and second run of HoX I tried to time it better to make sure it stunned the mobs I wanted, as well as staying with the group was a good idea. This worked much better until I ran off with Lisa and got killed… 🙂 TS is easier until you reach Sor’Jek, so didn’t notice it as much there.

With regards to your build I would change the two Epic Strength feats to Epic DR and Epic Toughness. +2 str isn’t as good as 10PRR and 50HP in my oppinion. Other then that there might be room for LegGS? Two tier 2 Opposition items should be possible without too much effort and is what I’m thinking of doing. That’s 14% more HP, although cleansing the items seems to be my biggest problem.

You also should consider getting some Divine Epic PL’s, if you can stomach 9 EPL’s that’s +27prr there. I’ll probably do this at some point…

Anyways, I think most of all it is a playstyle issue. Being used to just jump in with DC and cleaving big groups of mobs isn’t as viable as before, but when you get the CC right doing AoE dps is still very important for trash.

[Palna]

All that said, I didn’t do any math on any of the stats. I just specced to what I think is a decent vanguard build and looked at the numbers, and the experience I had.

Maybe close combat melee might need Sentinel destiny, but how do you then DPS…

[Lisa]

Yeah, that was a bit of a bummer. Someone said there was a Mind Flayer SE so we went there and everyone else went NW, ah well :/

[Furiyen]

Okay, before I reply to the above, here was my initial own thoughts, for which I’m looking for feedback on:

**** Improving the THF Build ****

Mitigation
– I could swap from Radiance to Affirmation LegGS Falchion. Blind works on mobs that have True Seeing, and thus where Displacement/Blurry doesnt work, but a temp 1K HP also seems worthy.
– My initial plan is also to swap the Goggles and Gloves on the build to two HP items from Leg Shroud. Combined, this would give me a +18% HP bonus, taking me up to circa 1600HP.
– I’m tempted to swap Maximise for Epic Toughness for another 50HP. I’m reasoning that my cure spells are not worth that much in Reaper, but Consecration and LoH are still useful, as is the Heal on Kill from DC, none of which benefit from the meta-magic.
– One of these items would be the Unconciousness Range Positive item, which might actually give me some hope when I take a fatal blow. Who knows.
– I could trade in an Epic Strength for Epic DR.
– PRR Past Lives. *Cries*.
– MRR Past Lives. *Cries even more*.
– HP Past Lives. *Cries like a little baby with its dummy stolen*.

Avoidance
– Im already missing Ghostly for a straight up 10% miss chance. But how do I fit it in?
– Combat Expertise / Improved Combat Expertise could be up for consideration. The combined pair would give me +10% AC and 20 PRR.
– I could look at significantly improving AC. I’m a heavy Armor wearer, so a little effort in this direction might reap some real rewards in terms of miss chance. Since I’m already at 115, some effort here would should yield results straight away.
– I could look into improving MDB (Daggertooth belt?) and Fight PL feat to take me upto 18% potential dodge. I’d have to slot insightful dodge somewhere, though. And eliminating by Belt gear slot gives me real problems with fitting everything else in.
– My saves could use some work. Mid 60s for Reflex/Will is a little low, although I have Perma-FoM from boots and Protection from Evil always on. The reflex isn’t helping damage from magic sources though. Ask Markessa.

**** Swapping to Vanguard ****

Benefits
– Much of the DPS lost from using a Falchion Two-Hander would be replaced by what I gain.
– There’s significant amounts of bonus base damage in Vanguard
– 20% Combat Bonus to Attack Speed
– 5% Doublestrike from Vanguard, 8% from ISM, and 7% from LSM. I’d be at 72% Base Doublesatrike, boosting to 100% for significant amounts of time from DC.
– Shield bashing damage. Woot? 🙂
– More Trash CC from Stunning Shield and the various charges in the tree.
– More Dodge straight up with Vanguard Armour Mastery. Would have to be careful with Shield Choice though.
– Significantly more PRR. Like, +25 PRR just for the Shield feats with using a Large Shield.
– Significantly more MRR. Like, double the rating for having a Large shield. And another 10 on top for the Large Shield.

Minus Points
– No ESOS. Period. *Cries. Again.*
– Base Damage reduction, as no longer receive 1.5x Strength bonus to base damage.
– Crit Profile reduction over a Falchion(90% vs 70% Crit Power). Same Damage, less often. Unless I get a Leg Spinal Tap. Which probably wouldn’t happen very quickly.
– HP wouldn’t be significantly be any different, its highly dependant on gear, and I’d want to keep the Strength/Charisma bonuses from enhancements for the top end strength to Stun DCs.
– People might think I’m a tank, using a Shield.
– Loss of Sealed Soul. Beholder hunting becomes … more difficult.
– Loss of the Exalted Smite / Holy Retribution / Endless… triumvirate. It’s nice DPS add cycle to have.

That’s what I can think of right now.

[Furiyen]

@Palna:

I agree somewhat with your comments. I think when your already at 160 PRR, it takes significantly more investment to see any real benefits above this, and your probably better off looking at more HP and more PRR to make the most of both. I’m loathe to add HP through build though, and would rather do it through better items.

I’m surprised by the DPS tradeoff. I would of though extra Attack Speed & more Doublestrike would seem to make up for the lesser base damage and crit power. But perhaps my experience will be different, as I’d be moving from THF to Vanguard on a build designed already for high Doublestrike and high base damage / melee power, which would suit SnB very favourably.

But yes, it seems in terms of build and survivability the answer simple – more HP and more PRR (and more MRR). Better gear and more Past Lives.

@Lisa

I distinctly remember a similar situation when the pair of us were at SW hunting down a Mind Flayer. Mind Flayer was dropped, no problem. It was when we ran north and literally ran into 2 Protectors as we were to turn the corner into the centre area. I remember that you got gibbed by them pretty much straight away, but then I mis-played my Dire Charge and didn’t stun them.

I caught one with Stunning blow, but couldn’t manouver enough to keep the other one off me and ended up dead as well.

Net Result – I might have survived another blow, or even two, with a better build or gear, but a poorly played Dire Charge by me meant I was doomed.

[Palna]

If you can get Affirmation LGS that’s a good option, I’ve decided Im gonna try to make that first when I get mats. It’s got a 1 minute cooldown to proc though, so best as a swap in item maybe?

About the vanguard DPS, I was a bit surprised too. I’ve done ETR’s as vanguard before and thought it was ok, but after playing TWF Tempest Pally I felt there was no way I’d keep fighting with a shield. 🙂

Gearwise: I use Epic Mentau goggles for ghostly, dex, exc. seeker, and swap to Epic Glimpse when needed. Trinket option could be

Legendary Planar Compass – (Trinket): Insightful Physical Sheltering +18, Quality Magical Sheltering +9, Ghostly, Insightful Fortitude Save +5, Green Augment Slot

Although I’d not be happy loosing Litany…

[Furiyen]

I may just wait it out till I have the 18% LegGS items crafted up, and see what its like to play THF then.

I ‘ll check out my banked gear tonight, see what Bastard Swords and Shields I still have banked. If I have some convincing gear laying out that won’t leave me a gimp lvl 30, I’ll consider a LR.

I just found an interesting thread concerning ‘Tank’ level defenses that may prove useful, particularly the AC breakdown in it: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/484164-As-of-U34-what-is-a-Solid-AC-for-a-Tank-Build

[Furiyen]

Ok, so I started playing with my build last night, testing out enhancement respecs to make a Vanguard build I liked. In short, I couldn’t make everything fit that I wanted, so I’ve dumped the Vanguard idea for now, and will stick with THF.

That said, I did come to the conclusion that the 8AP spent in Vanguard was a bit of a waste of time. It was there for the +3 Stun Dc, and right now, I feel I don’t need it as my DCs are already sky high. I can still hit 112DC with Onatar’s active, 109DC other times, and I still plan to put more Strength in the build as well.

So for -3 Fort Saves, -3 Stun DC, I invested the AP into Sacred Defender and picked up:

Glorious Stand
+5 PRR / +5 MRR
+50% Armour AC (= +22 AC!)
+5 Aura AC
+3 Aura Saves
10% Permanent Run Speed

It’s a start in the right direction, I hope. Tonight I take another look at my Feats & Twists and perhaps make some changes there.

After last nights Reaper shenanigans and acting as Healer, I’m a little loathe to give up on Maximise 🙂

[Lisa]

Yeah, Khatesh is ‘old’. I really need to put some effort into bringing her back from the dead but doing Reaper so much has kinda put a stop to that, a vicious circle unfortunately.

I’m keeping an eye on this thread because I’m very interested in doing the same!

[Author]

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